RIP Penspinning?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sebastiandoingthings, Apr 17, 2016.

  1. eazi-penspinner

    eazi-penspinner New Member

    Penspinning was my life back in 2011-2012, I'd watch everything i could find on youtube, read the whole forum, spin that pen for several hours and always look for a new linkage to learn.

    But lets face it, its a very time consuming, boring and unrewarding hobby. You have to spend A LOT of time to learn, and after like 300 hours spent, you will probably be lower than average compared to other spinners. it's just not worth it. And IRL, no one gives a damn about you spinning. It's cool for the first few times, then it gets annoying.

    All of that combined with the super ugly interface of the new forum made me quit for good. I mean the pen is still a part of my body, I spin it everyday, but there's 0 motivation for me to practice or learn something new.

    I'd rather stick to gaming when I want to waste time now.
     
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  2. Snake

    Snake ̴̛̤̙̮̜͉̮ͫ̔̆͘ͅ ̴͇͔̝͉̫̗͌̑̂̚͞ͅ ͥͭ̔͋̂͗͌̂̽̃͂̊̚͡ ̴̛ͫ̔̆͘

    sadly this is all true.
     
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  3. Ceru

    Ceru Old-Timer

    @eazi-penspinner is quite right there.

    I probably averaged about 4-6 hours of practice per day during my whole spinning career. That's a modest estimate for the amount of dedicated I put into it.

    My 5 year solo is coming up, that's 7,300-10,950 hours put into this hobby. Even with this amount of hours, you'll see people talk about your skill level not being that good, or below average.

    There's some dude with an alt on reddit, I think diobrando, who's been commenting on posts on the reddit for the past year that I'm the best spinner in the world to troll people. I mean, it's a troll, but people take it seriously and go on a rant about my spinning abilities, just because the opportunity is there. I mean, some people personally don't like me, but that's not what they were talking about there.

    The opinion towards about 90% of all active spinners is that they're not up to spec, just you won't see them say it to your face. I mean, think of people who put 10,000 hours into anything else, piano, esports, people in those communities think those people are legendary. Other juggling/object manipulation arts, dance, etc.

    But in pen spinning, where the average age of members is like 15, you just have idols from popular videos, and the rest of the trash in the eyes of most people.

    It was because in 2006 if you practiced for a few months you could be at the level of expert spinners. 1 year spinners got into collabs, in 2007 a year and a half spinner almost won the world tournament, and it was comprised mostly OF people who were by today's standard's considered not even above beginner.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2016
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  4. m1ch1

    m1ch1 Retired Maid Staff Member Retired Moderator

    I think it is not their age, it is just that they don't have enough experience with penspinning. Persons that have been spinning for less than year can't really evaluate the skill level of a penspinner because they don't pay attention to certain details, so they underesterminate him/her. And since atm the majority of the spinners on upsb are newbies, they tend to copy opinions from other persons, of who they think they can evaluate correctly (did the same at the beginning). Or they just like flashy or difficult looking spinning and focus only one aspect of penspinning and judge spinners only by that aspect (also did that with aesthetics). So the main problem is the lacking experience and not idolization.
     
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  5. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    lol so much wrong/that i disagree with in posts on page 2 (and no, it's not because i'm supposedly one of 'top spinners' who spun over 8 years and probably spent well over 3k hours dropping pen, i have no inborn magical talent or exceptional traits, just noob who somehow ascended from loving spinning and inadvertently, as product of enjoying spinning, became 'good')

    @eazi-penspinner
    @Ceru

    "I'd watch everything i could find on youtube, read the whole forum, spin that pen for several hours and always look for a new linkage to learn." --> sure, i also definitely spent way more time analysing vids/grinding basic learning of tricks themselves in earlier stages, but that was more product of knowing really little material and having no existing stuff to practice; i spin less time/day now and have less 'basic learning' because i'd rather expand existing aspects than entirely new ones

    "But lets face it, its a very time consuming, boring and unrewarding hobby. You have to spend A LOT of time to learn, and after like 300 hours spent, you will probably be lower than average compared to other spinners. it's just not worth it." --> so, why do people spin? why do people do hobbies? is it to enjoy themselves? how much of enjoyment is from being superior to others? how much of enjoyment is from improving yourself? or from feeling of pen in your fingers, or feeling of joy as you land trick for first time, or land hard combo, or break your own cont trick record? --> if you're really that troubled by being 'lower than average', then to me, you're not doing hobby to enjoy it in itself, there's enough rat race in life with school/marks/jobs that you don't need this stuff in casual hobby lol. and about 'unrewarding' --> well sure, if you compare day to day progress, you don't feel you improve much in PS usually, but comparing long term from when you were noob who could not do fingerpass to level after a year, 2 years, 3 years or more, you would have progressed by enormous amount

    "And IRL, no one gives a damn about you spinning. It's cool for the first few times, then it gets annoying." --> do you spin to impress others? or do you spin for yourself, same point as above; personally i don't give a f that people don't give a f or that non-spinners and spinners alike cannot truly 'understand' my level in cont (and lol, judging in wt/wc is simply a joke, it's not like spinners understand 'top spinners' either hah)...of course, feeling of ruling battlefield/leading world is a great (and addictive, and possibly corrupting) feeling, but it shouldn't be the core reason behind what you do....

    " I mean the pen is still a part of my body, I spin it everyday, but there's 0 motivation for me to practice or learn something new." --> so pen spinning isn't 'dead' to you, as expected of someone who reached such nice abilities and linkage back then ^^ spinning without having motivation to practice new things is perfectly fine as well

    "I'd rather stick to gaming when I want to waste time now." --> arguably, chance of you becoming elite even in single game, or competitive/professional level is super low, and you'll just be against salty playerbase swearing at you, accusing you of hacking, because you scored better numbers on screen in something; same arguments you put against improving in PS apply even more strongly to gaming (even though games are quite enjoyable), just that for discussion's sake, saying 'hobby is boring, consumes time, unrewarding, no one acknowledges' is pointless if your aim of hobby is for enjoyment (which is what hobby should be for)

    " I mean, think of people who put 10,000 hours into anything else, piano, esports, people in those communities think those people are legendary. Other juggling/object manipulation arts, dance, etc." --> lol what, i'm reasonably sure in more mainstream pursuits, 10k hours isn't anywhere NEAR enough to be in elite/top group at all, merely spending large amount of time alone without strategy/focused training/strong teammates/good framework in your country for that activity etc won't yield jack, of course the 'idols' ruling at the top may have spent a lot of time, but a lot of people surely poured in tons of hours and still are unknown, not at elite level etc....

    "It was because in 2006 if you practiced for a few months you could be at the level of expert spinners. 1 year spinners got into collabs, in 2007 a year and a half spinner almost won the world tournament, and it was comprised mostly OF people who were by today's standard's considered not even above beginner." --> sure, but that doesn't explain how GSL was one of top tech guys in WC14 at 3 years spinning only and countless other 'prodigies' in PS from 2010 until now (also, those guys who improve crazy fast in PS tend to all vanish/taper off/quit PS more quickly than the slowly improving normal long-timers)

    ok rant finished .-.

    tl;dr though is 'just spin if you enjoy it', that's all there is to it (and if your enjoyment stems mainly from pure 'reason' of beating others, or if you are so heavily impacted by what other people say about you, then you need to do some self reflection about your priorities)

    back in v3, certain guys (lol, nate and lookintothesun) and others kept flaming my spinning when i was super noob (the core thing they criticised was correct though, and i guess still applies now), but they quit before upsb even hit v4, whereas i kept spinning because i enjoyed it (and i will keep spinning until it stops being enjoyable, which is probably never)

    and someone is bound to say 'oh it's coz guys with technical power skill so high like i.suk exist that makes spinners give up' --> LOL NICE JOKE REALLY, that's simply stupid on so many levels even if you exclude main purpose of hobby for enjoyment....

    but if you are strongly 'competitive', then there's this stuff for you to consider:

    1. there'll always be those idols and seemingly unreachable stars in sky - will you give up on pursuing them because they seem unreachable at present time? consider how the 'new stars' became stars and what they thought when they were still beginners
    2. having 'unbeatable goal' isn't such a bad thing either, you'll always have something to aim towards outside of comparing yourself to yourself
    3. being overwhelmingly 'strong' or skilled is a form of alienation in itself, but if you some day reach that point and enjoy what you do, then you will keep doing it anyway
    4. for most part, people all start spinning from approximately equal zero level (other than some guys with a bit more natural hand flexibility or access to mainstream usable pens - i had below average flexibility right hand and access to basically no mainstream pens so w/e, not mentioning this to say i'm anything special because heaps of people have similar or worse starting 'disadvantage'

    about popularity of PS - sure, PS is less popular (at least even famous wt/wc/cv seem to get less views and comments now etc) - but idea of blatantly 'promoting' PS is not that viable either, coz PS isn't something that normal person who can't stand 'failing' 100 times to land trick once can truly enter into, PS is for the crazy guys who don't mind those 'fails' in process of learning, and enjoy that process even though it is 'painful' --> many ppl just go 'hey that's pretty cool', drop pen a few times or just learn TA and that's it, changing this isn't something done from video/posts alone, spinners will come naturally from the few people who can stand doing above....
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
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  6. Ceru

    Ceru Old-Timer

    @i.suk
    People in other sports put in the same amount of hours over a longer period of time, but 10,000 hours, ignoring the rhetoric, really does get you to top tier in a lot of things. esports players with 10k hours do currently compete in tournaments, so my analogy is definitely not wrong. My brother actually takes part in esports, he's going to be doing this university league thing next year now he's captain of their DOTA 2 team. Even if his progression slows down, by the time he's even 5K hours in he's going to be a total beast judging from what I've seen him accomplish so far.

    Some people pick up PSing much faster than other people, and they are literally a handful. Back in 2006 ANYONE could get up to the perceived top level in a short amount of time.
    Lets not forget that there are people like vladimir from FPSB that pick it up so fast they can break records and outdo even you before 1 year, his punkan record is still held iirc. Or TheBloodGod accomplishing 5 year feats in 1 year, or nadhif, or all those other branded "rising stars". Why they stopped being active, nobody knows, maybe it's just too easy for them quite frankly.

    And then compare that to the many people who trained power daily (myself included) and get only marginal improvements. I've put time into busts every day for the past couple of years, and they got more controlled, slightly more consistent, but I can still only do about 10 on a decent try, and my record is something from 16-18. And consider that to many spinners even my level of progression ( September 2011 - UPSBT 2013 ) was considered noticeably faster than normal.

    Another example is fel2fram showing me how he had learned most variations of triangle passes in 6 days, these tricks usually being something I can't do properly without 2 weeks of practice, and my left hand 234 took 2 months and only got used in a combo once. You are an example of someone who actually does have a legitimate talent for picking up fine motions, I remember Soren telling me that the first post you made on the board with the name "i.suk.at.pen.spinning" was a triple pinky bust, which at the time was considered almost impossible.

    The amount you get better per hour you put in is much greater than your average "good spinner" and by a ridiculous margin better than an actual average spinner. Take this from someone who was convinced for a long time that there wasn't any difference, and that obsessively pouring in hours at every possible opportunity of free time would help close the difference, it simply does not quite work that way, in a way people like you did hit a jackpot.
     
  7. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    @Ceru i'm interested as to how many hours competitive esports guys who win the several hundred thousand $ prize pool competitions put in (as well as how much time guys who reached competitive level but got stuck in lower tiers used)

    of the supposed 'talented' spinners, the reason TBG could do all that stuff so 'fast' was that he trained same few linkages systematically for hours doing them continuously to drill consistency, he put in similar hours as guys who spun for years, but he did those hours within short time by spinning heaps and heaps every day, and 'progress per time spent' is higher if you grind one thing at once rather than several things at once over long period (i.e. train A for 1 hour/day for a month and B 1 hour/day for a month gives better improvement than training A and B at once for 1 hour/day for 2 months, even though you used same hours in total)

    from jan-march this year, i'd train various cont for 1-2 hr/day recording until i'd break records in 3-6 or so sequences basically every 2nd day or so, and i got way more progress from that 2-month period in many tricks than i did for the half year, 1 year before in which i'd record deliberately maybe once/2 weeks or something --> basically 3-4x faster improvement, if you imagine someone who trained in this way for a year, 2 years, then it's not surprising that some guys improve 'crazily fast', when in fact they're simply using more hours, doing same thing rigorously to get higher reward per same time - and it's also not surprising they get bored of spinning this much after a short period and train less for rest of their spinning life, lol

    vladimir's pun kan record has been beaten by a few guys (some guys from JEB and PPP filmed 10-12 or so, and peem's offcam feats irl are simply unreasonable, so it's not like vladimir's pun kan skill is still unbeaten), also...pun kan is a weird trick in terms of progression and time grinded compared with other cont, i suspect it takes less time grinded to get pun kan progression up to a certain point than many other fl (compared to time i dedicated training to other cont, i never actually specifically trained pun kan or tried recording it for long periods but managed to get 8-10 of them, compared with consistent 40-60 min or more spent daily doing 1 trick for weeks-months to get to 8-10 of index pun new, fl ma ~ ring ss....however there also isn't solid stable method to get over 20 pun kan so idk) - but i consider pun kan progression not to be 'accurate' because the nature of its learning is abnormal compared to most other cont - if you consider 'long standing' feats, then surely sunrise pencil TS 15.5 back in 07/08 and cloud traveller midbak 1.5 x 12+ with mx in 2007 require longer training time to achieve than pun kan x 8-10 (at least, that's my view)...in fact, basically any cont record in existence requires far, far more time grinded than time spent to reach pun kan x 8-10 range imo

    cont trick development is a weird thing indeed, there's guys who land on lucky efficient technique early on (e.g. the first guy who filmed 100+ busts in really ugly way, nadhif when he learnt busts and palmspins) etc, personally i don't feel it's because of innate talent, but because there's slightly different ways to do cont (e.g. busts at base of finger, angle of pen during bust; fl ta lower down on thumb or in middle, angle of hai tua, angle change of hand in fl ta ~ palmspin) and such

    a guy who lands on efficient technique will get high number of such trick in fairly short time, and in large population of spinners, you will inevitably end up with some people who hit luck jackpot in getting efficient technique for a few cont - but you also realise that same guy cannot develop efficient technique/high numbers of large range of cont, there's usually still some he has to grind like mad and still can't do well, because he couldn't get good technique by luck straight off - hence, not based on talent

    i feel cont is a lot about grasping the right 'feeling' - and different tricks take different time to get this feeling, depending on trick, luck etc - to get fl ma ~ ring ss from 4 to 10, it took nearly a year of daily grinding the trick on the train for about an hour consistently (and this is after i was already capable of making 1-2 min fl combo easily, so my level of co-ordination for cont was already good), but once i understood what hand should be doing, it took a short time to get from 10 to 14, and from 14-16 to 20-25 of it

    no doubt, there will be some true 'talents' in the world, but a lot of 'crazy stuff' that some guys do has easy explanation which you probably already considered - to learn other tricks 'fast', having idea of core pen position, finger motions makes experienced spinners be able to accomplish such things, everyone else sees 'omg he learnt that breakdown so fast' whereas it's more like that spinner spent ages spinning before and doing different tricks, so he has higher ability to tell his hand what to do and gain feedback from it

    e.g. after i'd spun for 5+ years and copied fair bit of wt/wc/cv combos, people were going 'wtf' at a13x's dual pass t4 and menowa's wt15 r3 in respective time these were done, but i managed to pick both tricks/breakdown up within 15-20 min, because i'd worked on copying stuff off others for years and years --> rather than simply doing 'wtf how does he do that' and staring at slomo vid, it's far more helpful to pick pen up, fail repeatedly until you land trick a few times by luck, then try to capitalise on replicating the feeling hand's muscles felt during successful attempt - spinners who did this heaps and heaps are better at doing this, so they 'learn faster'

    if you think i am talented in learning cont, well, pinky bust cont is a bit like pun kan (the progress up to 5-20 or so of them in 'standard method' of doing pinky bust compared to time spent is very different to other cont), and i only managed to land 'efficient technique' by luck for spreads - every other cont, i progressed at a not-abnormal rate

    palmspin progress from past vids:
    dec 2009 x3
    march 2010 x4
    when peem's vid of x56 palmspin (offcam record then, 80) came out, my palmspin record was....5.
    sep 2010 x7-8
    nov 2010 x11 (nearly a year to get from 3 to 11? lol)
    sep 2011 x33 (nearly a year to get from 11 to 33, nearly 2 years from 3 to 33 - tony got efficient tech within a year and did 200-300 or something back in 2011 haha)

    similarly for busts, it took me half a year to get from x2-3 to x8, and this was doing busts nearly entirely for 2-3 hr/day probably, lol

    even earlier on when bakfall was a benchmark of progress in 2007-2008, it took me a good 4-5 months of trying to land bakfall smoothly 2nd time (excluding a random fluke at 4 months after which i didn't do it smoothly again for ages)

    the only cont trick i stumbled on lucky technique quickly was spreads, increased at rate way faster than my busts did, for every other kinda 'mainstream' cont that i learnt in first 4-5 years, there were guys who appeared to learn them way faster than i did

    note - this was in same time that such 'talents' (or possibly, grinders and liars) as luxray, mist, tigeroat were making truly insane vids in their 3 months - 1 year

    and i started spinning half a year after supawit did, so i was going 'wtf' at his 1 year, 2 year, 3 year, 4 year solos for ages, you think i'm talented? in my first 4 years or so, i was growing up in PS alongside such prodigies and legends like supa, peem, wc08 jeb gods, eriror, chautran, s777 etcetc (also, bao0123 guy from twps was hell good in his first 1 1/2 years too, easily competitive in wt09 vs guys who spun 3 years or more) - so maybe it's partly because i was always looking up from my position of noobness at those guys, but i really don't think my progression in cont in my first 4 years or so was anything notable at all

    training cont also gives very different progress depending on luck (and training 'regime), grinding exact same trick for 1-3 hr daily consistently for a month gives far more progress than putting same hours in, but stretched out over longer period (because trying to get muscle memory to remember multiple things at once is less efficient)

    while peem's control over anxiety on-stage is impressive and his absolute control is unbelievable, he trained cont 5-6 hr daily in 2009-2010 period consistently - which probably amounts to 4-5 years or more of less intensive/consistent practice...

    tl;dr though - definitely true that same person doing same thing for same time with same pen will not yield same results, but i still maintain that many skilled spinners trained for longer time and practiced more 'efficiently' in approaches they took (whether deliberately or by chance) rather than them simply having 'talent', and that guys who learnt cont 'fast' either grinded like mad, or stumbled across lucky efficient method which gave right feeling for them (or both), rather than them being naturally blessed or anything

    the fact we only directly see effort we ourselves put in as individuals, but have little idea of how much others put in is probably basis of this discussion, lol

    i agree that the progress i can get from 1 hour of dedicated practice in my current state, and my ability to pick up stuff i didn't know before is far, far higher than the usual spinner - but that's because i'd built up my ability over past 8 and a half years - this definitely wasn't the case when i'd spun 1 year, or 2 years, or even 3 years....

    i think my copying ability and learning ability per time used started increasing somewhere in my 3 1/2 to 4 years when i started expanding range of linkages on purpose, and ceru, you yourself were doing pretty crazy links after spinning for 'short time', so is that because you were 'talented'? or because you spent long time analysing videos and practising like mad...i'm reasonably sure it was from your dedication and aim to be the next f2f back then ^^

    NB: of course there's guys who seem to develop insane copying/technical ability really fast like GSL, mksft, fel2fram and others - but how much of it was because they trained more effectively, had more videos to learn from, could believe they could progress faster and other logical factors....

    why is 'belief' important? well, when nory could do 13-16 busts, everyone was wtf, same with hunlanlin's x17 vid that dethroned nory, then peem came along and cont went to hell - after peem arrived, far more guys could do 'insane things' in 'short time' - and i don't think it's because they just practiced more, because i'm sure hunlanlin and nory spent more time doing hard tricks and had superior hand/pen/finger awareness from their solid skill foundations than your typical 1-year stick spammer who can do 15+ busts randomly nowadays...

    i think it's similar as to why, after usain bolt arrived, runners did faster times - because of competitiveness, and because it was proven to be possible by someone else...

    vids of 'fast learners':


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIM02LEytpM
    <-- mist 6 months (jul 2008)


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUP5Hn2bmHQ
    <-- tigeroat 6 months (jun 2008)


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvqsd2h1nfw
    <-- luxray 3 months (jan 2009)


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a-P6GyaDEA
    <-- luxray 6 months (mar 2009)

    https://www.youtube.com/user/BSPUokotoet/videos <-- teotoko in 2010 (in upsbt10, challenged eriror and vicgotgame, when he'd spun 1 1/2 years or so)

    also see supa's 1 year and 2 year solos, s777's 1.5 and 2 year


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6f2zjjea-c
    <-- xml 1 1/2 year (jun 2012)
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
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  8. Dax8900

    Dax8900 Old-Timer

    jesus is this thread controversial
     
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  9. flow

    flow Old-Timer

    i like what i.suk said but wont i get rsi if i practice only 1 trick for a while over and over again?
     
  10. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    hand strain is part of 'luck factor' too, as in my fl ta developed technique that stresses hand a lot, so i can't do them for more than 2-3 attempts straight before numbers drop, and my fl ta ~ palmspin record is limited because my arm tires way before my statistical consistency messes up

    but you should do a few idle tricks with different hand/arm motions and finger positions, just make sure the cont trick training/same linkage training is focused on one or 2 things at a time, imo

    e.g. when i trained fl ia ~ ss a lot (ring and middle fingers both in), i'd take breaks with aerial ASS (ring finger in, middle out) - note different finger positions, it's also why my progress in these 2 tricks earlier this year were highly linked, because i'd use one to relieve hand stress from the other - i'd also do ringbak 1.5 a bit (ring finger up, palm down) to ensure ring finger and arm weren't f'd up too much
     
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  11. flow

    flow Old-Timer

    thanks heaps i.suk! lol rsi shouldnt be too much of a problem for me cos i get distracted when psing, even if i try to practice only 1 thing i end up doing other stuff lol
     
  12. Inev

    Inev meme academic

    4 u i.suk
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Walkaz

    Walkaz Old-Timer

    so true
     
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  14. Law

    Law Old-Timer

    @Ceru you're always so negative. Why do you consistently focus on flaws and refuse to acknowledge almost anything positive? That's all I've ever seen you do. You pop up every now and again to belittle someone or insist that whatever pessimistic opinion you have is indisputably correct. Are you going to say something like 'it's just realistic' or 'I'm just being honest?' Because it's not, and you're not. Instead of insisting that you should be more accomplished than you are because of something as meaningless as hours spent practicing, why not spend some time analyzing the way you practice, the way you do things, HOW you spent those hours. Maybe there's a way to practice that's more effective for you, or maybe the environment you practice in is disrupting you. Don't assume you're inherently worse than guys like Fel or the power gods. Believing it's out of your control, thinking it's just something you have no aptitude for, blaming the hobby itself for your perceived shortcomings, that's a lot closer to self-pity than it is to anything like truth.
     
  15. Monk

    Monk red light district Staff Member Moderator

    people are inherently better or worse than others
    take for example someone who doesn't study and plays on their phones during class and make straight A's, while you're studying your ass off, going to tutoring, then studying more at home and pass average.
    now, if you put all those incredibly smart kids together in a room, there will be one that's smarter than the rest, and that's a genius
    this is because of memory retention, the way they think, the speed in which they think, etc.
    e.g. f2f, s777, menowa, and so on
    everyone has their own mental and physical capacity, which is why we have IQ tests

    but that doesn't mean you should quit pen spinning because you don't learn fast or consistently if you enjoy it
     
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  16. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    fair bit of time, said apparently 'lazy person' has large portion of their supposed efficiency explicable also in some logical manner (e.g. studied a lot in years before, knows study method which works for them, has better prediction of exam questions, knows marking criteria better etc)

    there are supposedly 'average people' who could use memory techniques to compete in world memory competitions and stuff, so raising your level to crazy amounts by using certain methods (to extent a 'normal guy' can surpass those geniuses if genius does not use those techniques) is clearly possible

    sure, there's also guys you can't beat no matter what you do (there was this absurdly smart person who was #1 in maths in my state, she lost all of 1/2 a mark in ALL her school's maths exams she did in final 2 years of high school and got 100% in the 2 hardest state public maths exams) - even if i trained a lot, even if someone raised their skill past hers in ability, it's unlikely to achieve the robotic precision, so individual variation clearly has a factor - but until you've done your utmost using different methods to raise yourself to your max, don't go cry yet

    "but that doesn't mean you should quit pen spinning because you don't learn fast or consistently if you enjoy it" <-- truth

    btw, menowa isn't a 'genius' either, he's legit super hard worker who spun for very long (longer than me, he started in mid-2007 iirc, although his improvement rate increased a lot after he'd spun 4 years or so, i.e. from mid-2011 to 2012 wc12 period and kept getting better until wt15), he also spends a very long time filming some of his vids according to convos i had with dice (wc12 and jebt12 vids took 6+ hours of filming each - but dice also said menowa didn't train that much outside of filming time then, so idk)
     
  17. CYY

    CYY Old-Timer

    Before I begin, I am fully aware that each and every single person is entitled to his or her own opinion, and that there would always be people who would disagree with me. I am absolutely comfortable with that, and do not have any intention of starting or pursuing an argument of any sort. This is just my two cents.

    It is an irrefutable fact that pen spinning has been on the decline for quite a few years now, as @Green Caffeine has shown us. Many older spinners have quit pen spinning for good, or have been inactive for quite some time due to other more important commitments in their lives. In addition, there are fewer and fewer people who are interested in pen spinning, and there have not been many new spinners joining UPSB lately.

    There is certainly some truth to @eazi-penspinner words. Pen spinning can be very time time consuming indeed. Especially when the interest in it gradually wears off, it may become quite boring and spinners may not find the motivation to learn anything new or to practice.

    @Ceru has a point. Pen spinning in the past was definitely not as advanced as it was today. This may cause the scenario described above. However, due to the efforts of spinners who constantly push the boundaries of what pen spinning can be, it has evolved from a recreational hobby to a competitive sport. Maybe this is one of the reasons why pen spinning has been on the decline lately. As the years pass by, some of the older generation may find themselves unable to keep up with the progress of pen spinning, and new spinners quit after a short period of time because they are overwhelmed by the sheer number and complexity of tricks and linkages they have to learn. This may lead to the perception that pen spinning is unrewarding.

    The issue of why some spinners progress faster than others seems to be very prominent in this thread. In my opinion, I think that @Ceru, @i.suk and @Monk are all correct in their own way. There are numerous factors that can influence the time taken for a spinner to learn new tricks and improve their spinning. Some may think that the reason why some spinners experience such rapid progress is due to their inherent abilities, while others may think that it is due to the sheer hard work that these spinners put in. I think that the true reason lies in a combination of both, but the combination that resulted in the rapid progress differs from spinner to spinner.

    A spinner may have some inherent abilities that would put him or her at an advantage over other spinners, but relying solely on such abilities is not enough. The spinner still needs to put in hard work in order to learn new tricks/linkages, and improve his or her spinning. A spinner who does not possess such inherent abilities to start of with may find that he or she needs to put in much more hard work and time so as to surpass or even match the skill of other spinners. This is also why each spinner has his or her own individual learning pace.

    I cannot help but agree with @i.suk and @Monk on this point.

    Lastly, I think that a spinner's journey can be summarised by the following quote by Piet Hein: "The road to wisdom? Well it's plain and simple to express: Err and err and err again, but less and less and less." And with that, I wish everyone a enjoyable and unforgettable pen spinning journey. Keep on spinning, everyone!
     
    d1ffraction, Inev, flow and 2 others like this.
  18. Ceru

    Ceru Old-Timer

    You must be pretty new here if you think my progression was based on "meaningless hours of practice".

    Over my almost 5 years of spinning I've taken the time to speak to these rising stars personally, and power gods personally, and ask them how they train. A good friend of mine was Neirda:

    He holds a few world records, here you can see him spinning with a13x because they're buddies. The way I practice busts is the way he told me to practice busts, which is the way a13x practices busts, and he's the world record holder. So don't tell me I haven't done my research.

    I wonder if anyone here remembers how TBG practices his tricks, and the method he uses. I wonder if they ever put it to practice. For the record, I did, and it simply was not as effective for me as it was for him. The way that works for fel2fram to learn triangle passes did not work for me, the way he learned hai tuas definitely didn't work for anyone else because he's still got that record. All these things by the way, I've tried them. I could've sworn watched almost every tutorial video on pen spinning on youtube, and how to practice power tricks.

    Whenever I was not spinning, I would go watch FreeMan videos, watch them in slomo and see if there's anything I could take out and refine. I watched all his tutorials on the more unusual tricks. I broke down menowa combos, I once made a breakdown of a Fel2Fram combo (which was wrong, but it lead to fel making the real breakdown and talking to me about it).

    Me and Fel had a tag where I did a copy of one of his combos alongside him. To him this was a freestyle, but even to someone like me, who put so much time into research, and writing up reports and concepts on UPSB, to try and get my head around all this stuff, everything in it was alien and mind-bendingly difficult. The amount of people that did a fel2fram copy to the completion can be counted on one hand, and none of them to my knowledge ever did one of his better combos, only the simple ones like his FPSBT R1 or whatever. TBG couldn't execute a full fel2fram combo.

    It's not the hobby's fault, it's genetics. Some people are predisposed better than others in the way of muscle memory. This is realistic, and yeah, this is the honest truth.

    Could the people who think they have the potential to be better than Fel2Fram please stand up so we may laugh at them.

    Thankyou.
     
  19. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    personally, i've never practiced in any 'abnormal' or regulated fashion, i only did tricks and sequences that i felt like doing on the given day i picked pen up, i only left webcam recording while i practiced cont and alternating cont/did fl combo attempts for following 1 1/2 hours or so (couldn't grind any longer in 1 session because hand gets tired), and the only power trick vids i really 'learnt' something from was vicgotgame's original x2 and x3 hai tua vid back in 2009 because i'd misunderstood how hai tua cont works - when i trained cont, the only thing i thought about was getting better, so that i could stand at point i desired - to be as far above the world as peem was in 2009 and 2010 when he started power 'era' ^^

    and inadvertently, by enjoying cont and training cont to overkill levels (e.g. next highest fl ia ~ ss video recorded that i've seen is < 20, and no one has shown ability suggesting they can do over 40 of them, but i ground it to 50+, then to 80+, then to 100+, then to 190-200 range, for no other 'reason' than enjoying the trick and wanting to create something 'unbeatable' and beyond imagination - then i did similar by training a heap of other cont to nice level xD) - after 7 years of aiming to match the invincible legend and reputation peem created, i'd become a lot better - and i still try to learn new things and push boundaries because spinning is so interesting and fun for me

    it doesn't take 'talent' (and there are definitely guys with better inborn muscle memory development/progression than me in PS), it doesn't take glory-seeking nature, it doesn't take desire for bragging rights, it doesn't take watching and staring at heaps of cont vids in 120 fps at different angles, it doesn't take lucky strike and hitting efficient cont technique on first few tries, it doesn't take secret mod made by someone else, it doesn't mean having to create and adhere to some draconian training regime - all you have to do is have a clear vision and dream to surpass some distant goal and enjoying spinning - as long as you hold these 2 desires more strongly than anyone else, you will achieve amazing things

    yes, it's cliched and childish - but it's the path i followed and wholeheartedly believe is true (and, peem himself loved doing cont a lot, he didn't film anywhere close to his most amazing stuff to make people more surprised, he doesn't even remember his exact cont records - he said he simply spins)

    "Could the people who think they have the potential to be better than Fel2Fram please stand up so we may laugh at them." --> if you asked me in 2008-2010 (or even now), if i thought i had potential to surpass peem, i'd say 'hell no, nice joke lol' - but my perception of my 'potential' does not matter at all - that's the core difference in mentality between me and you @Ceru

    F2F spent huge amount of time developing new stuff and training it, taking 2-3 weeks to make his serious competition combos - combine this with months and years of spinning in an alien fashion and thinking differently to everyone else - of course spinners who think in a normal way and spun in normal fashion for their whole spinning time cannot hope to copy his material with mere hours of practice, you'd have to change your fundamental 'perception' of spinning to become like him, and it'd take time, but it's not impossible either
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
  20. Ceru

    Ceru Old-Timer

    @i.suk Comparing the dreams of peem being impossible to surpass to F2F is ignoring an important difference in pen spinning history.

    Pen spinning from 2006-2008 and from 2008-2010 in each of these two year periods advanced far more than it ever did in the past 5 years from 2011 onwards.

    From 2013-2016? Really not a lot has changed. There's no difference in trick popularity or shift in trends, it was S777 who said in an interview a couple of years back that we've hit the limits of what new things to do in pen spinning. From 2009-2012 the amount of power tricks in circulation increased by such a huge magnitude that we are never going to see again. From this the bulk of your power is actually made up, you don't surpass peem in power control or anything like that, but in variation.

    You're not going to see this happen with Fel2Fram, the level of complexity of his materials is still largely unknown 4 years after his 2012 WC videos, there are very few people that have anything that can withstand four years and still be considered unbeatable. As for the time he put into the combos, I'm fairly certain many WT competitors will tell you how they prepared parts if not the entire combo months in advance, 2-3 weeks for preparation and 6 hours filming really isn't spectacular, it actually sounds pretty damn normal.

    Dreaming of things and having a vision does not make them happen, i.suk, that's just rhetoric, if it is not practice, dedication, technique, genetics, research, experimentation, then there's nothing left than something that sounds vaguely poetic. For every person that ever really wanted to spin power tricks as good as peem, or you who succeeded, there are dozens who didn't come close, who wanted it just as bad.

    Yeah, there are people that learn faster than you do, but they're either doing better than you or they quit early on instead of keeping up the progression, it doesn't mean in any way you're not hugely faster at picking up tricks than advanced spinners.
     
    Inev likes this.

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