RIP Penspinning?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sebastiandoingthings, Apr 17, 2016.

  1. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    @Ceru

    hmm, i don't think we've hit the limits of new stuff at all, it's more there being a lack of people who aim at doing new stuff, because most spinners are simply copying existing material (most of them don't even bother with simple forms of variation) - for example, 2p1h is hardly explored, there's probably unspeakable amount of material/concepts that can be performed with it

    it's not like power is exhausted either, everyone knows that mix and match of fl around variations + topspin variation will let you generate dozens of power trick/fl variations - it's just that...well, no one bothers doing them for some reason (and it's not purely because of difficulty, it's that PS community as a whole prefers strongly to do existing material rather than branch off, it's always been like this - and it's those few people who break this trend like f2f, RPD and others, or someone who decides to reach outside limit of what is considered 'doable' like peem - these guys create the 'new era', and it's because of lack of people like this rather than actual 'lack of material' in PS, so i don't really agree with what s777 said)

    the reason f2f's material is largely unknown is more from people simply going 'wtf it's impossible' and deciding to learn from more conventional material, yes - f2f is definitely exceptional and his mind works different to everyone else, and he's been working with that element of 'genius' of systematically being able to modify and combine things in weird ways for long time, if someone worked at copying his stuff before he got as 'weird' and trained over long time, i don't see how he could be impossible to match or even surpass (e.g. MG guy from TWPS can copy fair bit of f2f's twirls - of course, he doesn't have the pure creativity f2f had to make new material, but it shows that copying f2f's material is hardly impossible)

    afaik most WT/WC competitors just combined linkages they had at the time (that they didn't reveal in previous videos much), they didn't spend 2-3 weeks deriving entirely different concepts that hadn't been done by anyone before; from appearance of tournament combos and comparing them to spinners' previous material, most of time there is enormous overlap or logical progression, and often significant recycling after R3 or so - doesn't seem like weeks of dedicated tournament planning to me - this is why i consider f2f's combo planning different, f2f also surely spent far longer time deriving new material/making deliberate variations of things than the usual 'good spinner' who just copies difficult things and changes fingerslots/trick order and whatnot

    "Dreaming of things and having a vision does not make them happen, i.suk, that's just rhetoric, if it is not practice, dedication, technique, genetics, research, experimentation, then there's nothing left than something that sounds vaguely poetic." --> it's from enjoying spinning a lot makes practice enjoyable, makes dedication not requiring mentally forcing yourself to spin, it's from having a vision that you practice new/difficult things to push yourself - of course, practice and dedication definitely required, but enjoyment and vision makes what seems stressful and annoying into something you love doing, which for me makes it far, far, far easier to do ^^

    experimentation is natural part of learning, research is just using available material, technique is just product of experimentation, disadvantage from not hitting genetic or lucky cont technique lottery is overwhelmed by experimentation and practice --> in the end, it's still very same things we determined before, lol

    "For every person that ever really wanted to spin power tricks as good as peem, or you who succeeded, there are dozens who didn't come close, who wanted it just as bad." --> the reason they didn't get anywhere close is from not enjoying practice enough, because training felt more like a chore than something for fun - until they've exhausted reasonable avenues of improvement and dedication, using 'i lost because of unchangeable factors' is merely an excuse - although perhaps you've already reached this point, which is why you made above reasoning

    well, peem and f2f era are different stages in PS, sure - but the main similarity is the enormous gap they held over everyone else in the time they spun actively - the gap with peem and world has closed and f2f and world has not, so it's your idea of 'f2f was just that exceptional' and my idea of 'not enough people bothered pursuing f2f' that are competing - and we'll never really know answer to this (IMO, anyway)

    "Yeah, there are people that learn faster than you do, but they're either doing better than you or they quit early on instead of keeping up the progression, it doesn't mean in any way you're not hugely faster at picking up tricks than advanced spinners." --> they quit because they didn't enjoy PS enough, other guys doing better because they practiced or focused on different aspects etc, it doesn't affect my thinking or enjoyment; and....i think you didn't read earlier posts where i outlined my cont progress of palmspin and bust in my first 3 years, i'm not hugely faster at picking up tricks, it's just a mental trap that people put themselves in to comfort themselves that 'good spinners are inherently better and i can't do anything about it' (which, has some element of truth for you who did practice a lot, but for many people who did not practice as much as you, is probably not core or only reason contributing)
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
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  2. snoopy1218

    snoopy1218 New Member

    In my opinion, there are a number of things that caused pen spinning to dwindle off.

    1.) Today's "youth" (middle school is when I started pen-spinning, so I'll use that as a reference) spend more time online and live in a less tangible world than I did, and so spend more time on social media than actually doing stuff with their hands and bodies. Pen spinning was a fun way for me to pass the time, and I guess today's kids would rather snapchat their friends than find a physical hobby. In addition, video games and electronic entertainment have grown exponentially in development and let's face it, if I were a kid, I'd rather be playing CoD Zombies in 1080p than spinning stationery.

    2.) The learning curve for pen-spinning is admittedly harder to deal with than other activities, such as bike-riding, playing an instrument, and (god knows) video games. I remember getting frustrated very often when I was just starting out, and trying to learn busts and baks without fundamentals, and even after finding upsb, I still struggled. The youth of today have less patience, and focus on instant gratification, so I can see the learning curve as something to discourage the newcomers.

    3.) Material cost and availability. When a KT costs around $25, there will be lots of holdouts just because money is already a roadblock (lord knows I was stingy as hell, and basically bummed mods off of everybody I knew). Also, more and more parts are becoming discontinued (Art Colors, Hyperjells, etc etc), and so the selection of the older mods start to disappear.

    In the end, I find pen spinning to be very rewarding, because I've put in the time. I can basically do it anywhere, and with ease; I don't forget the tricks, and it's always great to impress your teachers and professors for that initial 9 seconds, and then they sigh because they realize you do poorly in their class because you spend too much time fumbling around with pens and markers.
     
  3. Feuersturm

    Feuersturm Time's Person of the Year, 2006

    I agree with all of this. As a new penspinner, idle time that I spent on my phone I now spin a lot.

    The learning curve is insane. I spent a lot of time playing Dota 2, and trying to get friends into that is hard, because it's hard to learn basics (tons of information), or they play an (arguably) easier to pick up game like LoL. I've showed a friend or two the thumb-around, but initial dis-coordination and lack of fluidity with even just a sonic puts them off. I get frustrated, but I keep practicing because it's something I very much want to learn. Desire to learn needs to be very high to learn and push past the fundamentals of penspinning.

    Materials are definitely a contributing factor. With games, nowadays you just download them. Much easier hobby to pick up. It's very hard to "fall into" penspinning, like you can casually playing a game. Compare this to penspinning, where a lot of pens/pencils don't work well at all. Mods make some tricks easier, but public knowledge of pen modding is very low - usually someone needs to have shown them at some point. A fresh beginner would probably give up earlier with an unmodded pen, because it's undeniably harder to learn. A BICtory or unmoddded RSVP is far easier to spin than an unmodded standard pen. Also, in some places, many mods are difficult, if not impossible, to find parts for.

    "Reward" from penspinning seems to be a big topic in this discussion. Some people like things that are easier. For example, watching movies is a hobby. It's rewarding in the sense that, generally, movies are entertaining to watch. It's easy to pick up - you literally just watch movies. It's easy.

    However, some people relish a challenge. it's just that simple. Not everyone wants a hobby that's difficult to pick up, but there are some that embrace difficult things. I would say that penspinning is rewarding, as much so as any other hobby that doesn't really produce anything (for-fun hobbies?).

    How can we make penspinning more popular?
    This is a difficult question, and there's many ways we can't make penspinning popular. We can't get people away from their phones and the instant gratification of many hobbies. We can't make people that don't like a challenge embrace something that can be unintuitive.

    One solution I can think of is making pen mods more accessible. Personally, the BICtory is awesome. Almost all the components were laying around my house somewhere. The pens I didn't have, I ran to Walmart to get. Without my BICtory, I would be stuck with my unmodded RSVP, which is usable but more difficult to learn tricks on. Many popular mods like the waterfall or any comssa mods are impossible for me to source the parts for locally, as I live in the U.S.

    Making newer mods using newer pens (sourced from common stores/chains) would possibly increase popularity of spinning.

    The other solution I can think of is to lower the initial difficulty of spinning. There's only 3 places I really know of for penspinning - YouTube, /r/penspinning, and UPSB. Searching "penspinning tutorial" on YouTube yields many old videos in SD, and many videos that are of non-fundamental tricks. YouTube is probably the biggest site that people would look for penspinning tutorials on, besides Google, and these aren't good search results for a beginner. The subreddit is fairly easy to find, but the FAQ could go more in depth. UPSB is the least common site for people to stumble across, and there's no huge links to beginner penspinners/progression guides.

    Making a well written text guide for beginners is a necessity. It must be easy to find. There definitely needs to be obvious and apparent links to it on the forums. Maybe a new video or two that give a general introduction to penspinning, and walk through the text beginners guide.

    I think that the text guide post would need to include sections about:
    • Pens, and which unmodded ones are best (MUST be commonly available, like the RSVP).
    • Modding pens, and easy mods to make (that can be sourced easily and locally - BICtory, etc.); Also, popular mods that are hard to make (waterfall, etc.)
    • Learning order! THIS IS HUGE! Tell people what they should do to become good. Shadow's learning order would be an excellent candidate here. Explain why the order is recommended, but note that it is possible to skip ahead, with worse results (some people will always want to do this, I think). Also, link to new, nice-looking, well-presented videos if possible (definitely for the fundamentals. Can't be avoided for some tricks, unless new videos are produced)
    • How much to practice/how to practice. Don't tell people just to spin a pen. Tell them which method of practice is the best.
    • Popular videos. Show what people could (eventually) accomplish with all of this! Practicing fundamentals can be boring, and the tricks are short and kind of plain, but smooth combinations look awesome!
    • Penspinning notation. Less important for beginners, because they won't be jumping into difficult combos, but at least an introduction that would be good for fingerslots and transitions between them.
    Note that the comprehensive beginner's guide should probably include more, I'm just writing this as I think of it.

    Sorry that this post is probably badly written, just kind of braindumping. As a newer spinner, I really don't want this hobby to die.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  4. freezR

    freezR Member

    We could also ask youtubers/instagrammers etc. to make videos about ps just like kuma films
     
  5. Security

    Security Irresponsible Security Guard

    This thread is my explanation to people when I say that psing is dying out.
    @Feuersturm
    I like the idea of spreading the word, ESPECIALLY about mods.
    People ask me to make them a KT/Buster equivalent, and since I still have the mentality of "buster/it early on will ruin your spinning" I direct them towards simpler mods such as the XMGX, which two classmates have made themselves.
    Most people don't pick it up, I think, because they are intimidated. Most people I talk to say "I can't do anything" (in relation to spinning) and thus never pick it up, because they don't think they can do it.
    I know a few who can do it, and I've tried to get them to join UPSB, and further their spinning.
    It makes me sad to see members go, but we all have commitments to make, be it school, a job, family, or a relationship, pen spinning interferes with most if not all of it.
    One reason why I am disliked at my school (aside from the obvious) is that pen spinning makes up for most of what I talk about, and nobody wants to hear that.
    I get obsessed with things, and pen spinning is one that has stuck with me for longer than most "phases" I've been through. It's likely that I'll be at it for a while, to make it worth all of the time, money, and effort I've put into this.
    tl;dr of my rant
    People leave the boards because they cannot juggle this and whatever they have going on at the same time, and choose their irl lives over this.
     
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  6. TheSilverWing

    TheSilverWing New Member

    This is sadly true, pen spinning is dead. I don't really do much pen spinning, I usually customize pens because it's fun and amazing to look at. I do pen spinning alot in school because it's boring.
     
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  7. Æva

    Æva Gourmet

    yes yes, pen spinning is dead
     
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  8. Kuyarei

    Kuyarei New Member

    It's an unfortunate thing. Especially since i joined at the end of 2015, after all the action had long been over. Spinners have majorly dropped from some years ago. The main issue i see present is that it seems that the current spinners are just too high-leveled to even compete with. And especially that some top spinners seemed to stop spinning actively in the end.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  9. THEGEYSIKE

    THEGEYSIKE Member

    Wait then doesn't it make us more unique?
     
  10. Security

    Security Irresponsible Security Guard

    In everyone's eyes, they're unique.
    Yes, our hobby is odd, and uncommon, but we're not incredibly unique.
    Most YT channels that are featured are either monetinized, "trendy", or both, hence why most PS channels, while popular by our standards, it's unlikely that they'll reach the amount of likes/subs/views as bigger channels do, because it's so uncommon.
    Sure, you have some "pen spin trick" videos on some non ps related channels, but those aren't the best IMO, and aren't NEARLY as popular as other channels.
    The most popular channel I can think of where some spinners pick up spinning is KumaFilms, which might be monetinized, and is fairly professional, but it has nothing to do with what is currently popular. If I go on YouTube, log out, and go to the homepage, I don't see anything even remotely ps related. It's all funny vines, football/soccer, American football, and music videos from popular pop artists. It's uncommon, and not the kind of uncommon that is generally accepted to the point where it's called "weird" but it really isn't. PS is such a strange thing in my school, although some students can do some of the fundamentals.
    Now the weirdest thing people do in my school is watch anime, which is very common on this board, and in other parts of the world. I see PS as one aspect of a foreign country that never really took root, either here in the US, or in other places. I'm not saying it hasn't, but many beginners in the US last for a grand total of maybe two weeks.
     
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  11. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    Yeah, attention to PS (in viewcount) definitely lower - old WT/WC and solo vids (e.g. peem WC10 finals, supawit 3 and 4 year solo, s777's solos) - a lot of these vids spinners have 30k, 50k even 100k+ or 200k+ views. This is far more than menowa's vids (which are by far the most popular out of WT15 combos, each one has 10-15k views - whereas good WT15 combos from other guys have 2-3k views only, sometimes not even that).

    Basically every good spinner keeps spinning, but usually they don't actively practise/try to improve (or film that much), so it feels like they vanish even when they keep spinning or watching PS vids occasionally.

    However, technical skill level is now ridiculously high with all the resources and learning material available. For example, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqKkz2OmvDw3i0qIqHBcWJQ <-- this guy has spun a year (yes, shocking); and a certain spinner I met in HK can do 29 adv ss cont and 14 fl ma ring ss cont at 1 year 9 months (it took me a full year of nearly grinding to get to 10, and that was in 2015 after I'd already spun 7 years). Of course, these 2 guys are exceptions even among 'prodigies', so no one should feel bad about themselves.

    While top spinners seem too distant in skill to beat, it's felt that way as a beginner for a long time, whether you start in 2009 (seeing s777's, supawit's 2, 3, and 4 year solos), or if you started in 2011-2013 (sutomo spun 2 years when he won WT13, f2f's fpsbt 2011 combo and WC12 combos were when he'd spun under 3 years). Of course, main aim of PS is to enjoy it, but human mind can't help but compare against those legends or prodigies.

    Those amazingly skilled 'crazy' people will always seem too distant to surpass. However, if you enjoy and improve gradually without despairing over how much 'better' others are, after a while - you could be one of those who others look up to (not just for PS, but in academics, in your job/profession and other aspects of life).
     
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  12. shadrcom3t

    shadrcom3t Old-Timer

    Edit: adding to what people previously mentioned, namely Feuersturm

    I'm not a great penspinner or anything, but as someone who 1) started pen spinning in 2008 and 2) has done different hobbies, I'd like to add my two cents:

    a) The only way I found out about UPSB was because of Spinz. It's a fact. As much as I don't like Spinz (and I bet you don't as well), I think the "second" penspinning boom in 2008-2010 happened because of it. I found out penspinning from someone else, but without me finding Spinz on sale at Kmart in 2008, I wouldn't have gone far in penspinning. We can try to mimmic what Spinz did in 2009, but it's unlikely to get another boom because most people do online shopping....

    b) Other than skateboarding and power tricking (I do neither of these), pen spinning has the highest learning curve. It's even higher than contact juggling, which is another dead/dying form of juggling (ContactJuggling.org is now gone). Most people give up after thumbaround or charge. In fact, most people that tried to learn penspinning from me in high school only got to thumbaround. no combos - no nothing... "it's too hard."

    c) I think that over the years, we've lost too much documentation, ESPECIALLY after the v3/v4 crash. I didn't even realize the crash happened, and when I tried to research a lot of things, I couldn't find it. I couldn't even find how to make an RG2T or RSVP CX. I can't figure out what sonic variation I'm doing, and there used to be documentation on V4. I don't even remember how to make an Impact MX (although, tbh I don't want to make another one). Someone mentioned that we should have a document for newbies, i.e. "how to start penspinning," and I think we should definitely consider writing one. This same scenario happened to Yoyonation as well, and yoyoing fell off in 2012 because of that.

    d) Adding on to that we lost documentation, there are a lot of Youtube videos missing, either from google deactivating accounts from not agreeing with their new terms of service, people deleting their youtube videos, etc. Kam's videos are missing; so are Eso's. In fact, I thought Eso had the best tutorials, and was one of the reasons I continued on with penspinning.

    e) As many others have said in this thread, penspinning requires every single kind of patience. Especially before Penwish got all these pens, it takes really long to get parts to make mods. I still trade every once in a while. It takes really long to get combos and get tricks. The list keeps going.

    f) Again, parroting what other people said, technology is taking over. Most people don't do art, music, dance, juggling, etc. nowadays cause we have technology I've seen most people that don't pick up something that takes commitment, e.g. learning an instrument and playing in a school orchestra, usually don't go far in hobbies. Sadly, most people don't know how to practice or have the patience to sit down and learn. In all honesty, people don't go outside anymore to play.

    g) People are leaving. This community was too elitist (now it seems ok tbh). Sadly, in early 2010, I moved on to yoyoing cause I thought it was easier to appreciate, people were more welcoming, and I had an easier time overall. I came back to UPSB every once in a while. When I first joined UPSB, I felt like people were too elitist about their own opinions and thought everything else was trash. Having opinions is good, but imposing it onto other people when they don't agree isn't the most welcoming thing in the world. That and getting angry at beginners for not being good is how you hurt your community. This is important to consider if we want to keep penspinning alive. The time and effort to be good is not worth it, especially that non spinners say "it all looks the same," but helping one another will keep UPSB alive and prevent people from leaving. TBH Yoyonation used to be like that but now it's gone. #ripYoyo

    -----------------------------------------------


    TL;DR - to save penspinning/UPSB, we need 1) something to distribute penspinning to the public, 2) to recover the lost information from v3/v4 and Youtube #BringBackEsoTutorials, 3) be more welcoming to newcomers in general, and 4) realize people don't put time into hobbies, projects, etc. anymore when technology can do everything for you.


    I wasn't able to read through everyone's post, but skimmed through some of the points and ideas. I have been out of the scene for a very, very long time. This might give some alternative insight. I'd like to add that because of penspinning, I was able to find everything else that I currently do. I'm very thankful for that. Without penspinning, I'd probably be just another kid playing video games/watching youtube. I came back cause I found my old youtube channel, and decided it was time to play Tack On again :thumb:

    Reply as you see fit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  13. Monk

    Monk Red Light District Staff Member Moderator

    you guys spin pens and have the audacity to say pen spinning is dead/dying
     
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  14. shadrcom3t

    shadrcom3t Old-Timer

    maaaannnn I was trying to give insight as a lot of other manipulative arts are falling off. I juggle and tbh, the same thing is happening. I didn't say directly that penspinning is dying, but it is clear that many manipulative arts, juggling, etc. are falling off in the public scene....

    Edit: I'm not helping myself with my phrasing, but I'm saying we should try to be more welcoming to newcomers and be more public about penspinning. that and recover documentation. it would help a lot for the penspinning scene, esp the ways I've seen how other hobbies have fallen off.
     
  15. Monk

    Monk Red Light District Staff Member Moderator

    if they quit because we don't welcome them enough, they wouldn't have the motivation to make it relatively far at all in the first place
     
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  16. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    the whole 'PS is dying' is based primarily on 1. google search results for pen spinning related stuff (IMO not really an accurate or relevant measurement of activity of spinners - for example, kumafilms vid of ian jenson and PPM got millions of views, but we didn't see corresponding increase in newcomers or a future increase in decent spinners after it - because the higher viewcounts of more famous PS vids are mostly from non-spinners who will try spinning for all of 2 minutes before giving up), 2. activity of UPSB forum - IMO also not really that relevant, as forums are less used as a communication medium in recent years (facebook, skype, other IM clients etcetc are more common now).

    views on wt/wc vids - they decreased, but you can't take the top-tier old wt/wc vids as representative of old vids (like s777 wt11 finals or peem's wc10 finals combo); if you compare the 'typical level wt/wc video' from 2009-2012 to 2013-2015 typical wt/wc vids, the difference is not that big (especially after taking into account the longer time the old vids had to gather views); looking at menowa's wt15 vids vs a13x's wt13 vids (probably the most watched spinners of those 2 tournaments), menowa's actually have more views iirc (11-15k each, a13x has such a number only on his r5 combo whereas the rest have 5-9k or so; supawit's wt11 vids have 7-11k views even though they're from nearly 6 years ago)

    it's true that wt r3-r6 of 2013 and 2015 had less impressive lineups than legendary wt11 r3-r6, and that there hasn't been any genius innovators since fel2fram, 1. technical skill is super high nowadays, with 2 year spinners doing very crazy stuff (e.g. thebeygeek [FPSB], zo.xoa [HKPSA], and even 'typical' 1-2 year spinners now have far greater linkage variety and overall skill than they used to); 2. revolutionary 'breakthrough' in materials in PS are very rare (f2f and peem are basically the only two spinners after 2008 who expanded known range of tricks hugely - there's been gradual development of hybrids, fingercross etc of course, but not enormous additions).

    the main 'concern' or 'cause' of apparent less activity - people simply prefer to do other things because PS takes a lot of patience to learn; which is why making some super epic promo of best combos aimed at impressing non-spinners will not really make more people seriously into PS

    tutorials - well, tutorials are of questionable use anyway (lol ktrinh taking 13 minutes to teach TA, no one got time for watching that length), learning PS is still about sitting down for at least half an hour and trying to do the same trick constantly; it's way more useful to practice your vision to draw out useful info from videos (i.e. pen's angle of rotation, finger positions, pen's position relative to fingers, COP position) - afaik there are no tutorial videos teaching this analytical skill

    also, if you think v4-v5 is 'unwelcoming', v3 was far harsher in criticism/insults lol (while i've heard some spinners remain in PS partly due to 'community', that'd probably be from their closer circle of PS friends they built; and i've never heard of any spinners who quit due to community saying stuff, just my recollection)

    tl;dr basing 'PS is dying' on google search count/UPSB activity/views on certain vids is inaccurate; the core 'cause' of people's lower attention span/patience is not fixable by us*

    *i would be willing to help film if someone wanted some promo, but i really don't think it'd work in making huge influx of actual serious spinners
     
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  17. shadrcom3t

    shadrcom3t Old-Timer

    ^thanks for your response! I apologize for my tone in my original post. I was typing pretty much everything I thought about the matter since I started spinning .

    I think v5 is great; it was more directed towards v3/early v4. I wanted to share what I thought retrospectively could have been worked on (around 2008-2010). Some of the penspinners on v3 that I connected with left because they felt the opposite, that they didn't fit in so they left. It was only 2 spinners that I knew, so it's a pretty small case. But it did happen and that's where I was coming from. I also felt a bit of animosity when I started (again, v3 lol), but I got over it eventually. I moved on to making mods =P The others that leave do so because of lost of interest/not being serious, so I agree with your point. I came back mid v4 and I thought everything was good. Played tack on and had fun. Just reflecting on what had happened to me early on, and what it could've implied.

    About the tutorials, it's more that Eso's tutorial showed the trick in the first 5 seconds and then with slowmo, and I could know what the trick is right away. ktrinh's vids don't do that, so I feel that when people see those tuts, by 15s they're already like "what is the trick even." To a non spinner that's a bit cumbersome, esp that it takes ~30s to know what the trick is. Yes not everyone has the same analytical skills, but not everyone has time to wait 30s to see what a trick is either (what you said, pretty much). Freeman's vids are still up tho, so it's ok. Just wanted to clarify that this "not straight-to-the-point" stuff can deter newer spinners if that's the first tut they see.

    Yeah a lot of communities are moving to FB, but it's a bit harder to organize, communicate, and connect when you have 5 different people posting at once lol. The Reddit community seems to be doing well tho

    I'm mostly concerned about the missing documentation. The UPSB Wiki was invaluable to me starting off, and it could be to future spinners. It is going to be a while till we get that back. This point and the rabt in general was going off of what Feuerstrum said. Guess it didn't come across that way....

    tbh I wanted to give a heads up since other communities are also slightly concerned about what's going on, globally/internet speaking. UPSB v5 seems to be doing fine, minus the missing documentation. I wanted to reflect on what we could do, moving forward. I don't think we're dying/dead (not what I was getting at/what I said), but because what's going on with other communities, I wanted to give insight to keep UPSB going for the future.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
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  18. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    The pen spinning article on Wikipedia has pretty good information for beginners. I don't think the Wikipedia article needs to be changed much, but I do think incorporating some of it into the UPSB Wiki introduction article would be good. What is your vision for a good beginner page? (Like right now I'm gonna add basic notation to the UPSB Wiki article and maybe add some history too.) Also, if you want to help us with the wiki, please request access because we really need more helpers :bowdown::help::bowdown:
     
  19. Security

    Security Irresponsible Security Guard

    In today's youth, you've gotta be right, and if you're not, even if you know it, you've gotta keep thinking you are. So, many problems occur between actual beginners and "beginners" (members who've only been around for six months or so, but have grown accustomed to how said board works, how to act, etc,.) there's a sense of pride, and even I have found my self exasperated by the actions of members fairly new to the board. This may be that my pool of patience on a good day is rather shallow, and that I get frustrated by others easily, but I am sure I'm not the only one when a new member keeps double posting, and asking questions answered in the first post. We've all been newbs to the board (and I mean that in the nicest way possible), and we've all unknowingly broken the rules (double posting, spamming vcool, etc) and we've pissed off the mods and exasperated "oldies". I think reading the rules should be more enforced. It would prevent a looooot of unwanted double posting, and would help our "oldies" get along with newbies. Another thing, with members who's names I won't mention, (there are more than one of them) post, well, some pretty terrible mods, that look bad and look like they spin bad. From what I can tell, in the early days of v5 (or when the SOYP thread was initially posted) someone could post some pretty bad mods (I saw some clip cuts that made my fingers hurt) and not get a bad rep for it. I'm not entirely sure what's changed about our members now. People are nicer, but we're also fairly cruel as well to those with inexperience (I'm not exempt from this).
    Long story short, next time someone double posts, just give em a quick link to the rules. Don't be rude when someone isn't right about a mod.
    I get that I do a lot of these things, but I'm trying to be overall nicer to new members.
     
    Inev and shadrcom3t like this.
  20. shadrcom3t

    shadrcom3t Old-Timer

    I actually have not seen that page before :o it's actually very good lol

    I think letting people know what kinds of "unmodded" pens to use is also important when starting out. I saw it had a pen mod thing at the end, but it doesn't go over what people should start with. Maybe putting a link of upsb (as you mentioned) and a bit more depth to what pens to use would help out a lot, e.g. "see UPSB Pen Modifications," etc. I feel most people can get RSVPs, Bics, and/or G2s. Even common double sided markers would do.

    Seeing people use pens with huge clips starting out is a bit like... wut.

    I actually thought about this a lot last night. I'm not entirely sure, but I can try to teach some people at my local juggling club and see what works best. There's always "better" ways of teaching things to others, especially in pen spinning. pretty much "explain it to me like I'm 5" but being concise. Once you say something confusing OR irrelevant, you lose the attention of the person you're teaching/bringing in.

    History and Wiki Stuff:
    History is always fun. something pretty short (3-4 sentences) and amusing. like "something something Kam ... bonkura something... other early spinners... power tricks mods and fancy stuff... sfsr broke 3000*F" (except don't put that last one). I know very little about UPSB's history tbh

    I'd probably help out more with pen mods, than anything. I don't remember the authors of a lot of pens I have, but I can fill in some articles that used to be there (namely LeMon, Impact MX, RSVP CX, RG2T, and some others I find). I think the RSVP CX is a great mod, esp. if people can only buy RSVPs lol. Probably won't get around to it till summer, but I'd def be down to help.


    This pretty much hits the nail on the head on how I felt, esp v3. It's more of "how you help" beginners who don't understand how the board works instead of saying "don't do that," "that's wrong," "that angle trash," "ur spinning wrong," "dat mod is ugly," "stop spamming." People can be stubborn, but at least redirecting them is good.

    People are def much nicer now, since v4. I remember when I first posted a mod on v3 SOYP (and I made a tut after only a few "that's cool" comments, pls don't kill me), everyone was like "that's so ugly wtf" "no one asked for that" "gtfo." But if people were just like "o make sure people request it before posting, as per pen modification board rules" and closed the thread, would've been much more constructive. A lot of newcomers on other communities post tuts, reviews, etc. without reading rules, and having a mod/someone to redirect them AND close the thread is much more useful than bashing them for not listening. (There's also the infamous L33T MX by another spinner that did a similar thing, but tbh the whole situation could've been avoided.) This is probably the only infraction I've made against the rules (hopefully), and learned from that experience since.

    >>I feel that reimplementing the banner that used tp scroll on top of the SB (with bold neon letters) would prevent a lot of spamming there. (I don't use the SB much anymore, but spamming inevitably happens). A "before posting, read the forum/subforum rules banner" on top of the page or above making a new post might help too. I think that was around on v4, but not 100% sure. These may or may not be useful in the long run. #suggestions

    bottom line, avoid being condescending. I agree with what you said - redirect people when they make mistakes, be constructive with your comments, etc. (you really hit the nail on the head lol). it's hard to always be 100% constructive, but making an effort is key imo. <3 #Security
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017

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