UPSB Wiki Discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Anemia, Dec 4, 2015.

  1. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    Very interesting. In fact I was considering these points you brought up before I posted the proposal, and it got me thinking if the fingers in the trick names are actually some sort of modifier (the term "modifier" also has no truly concrete definition, just like most things in something as hobby-like as pen spinning) and Around being the actual trick. Anyways, like I said, yeah most people won't really care (or they are smart enough, as you say) about a space. Seems like there is a fundamental difference of opinion here. Whatever we do, I think settling on a single system is best. So maybe a poll is necessary? Seems a bit overkill on a small matter of opinion like this to be honest, but it may be the most logical option. I for one don't think one of us should concede willy-nilly to the other's view here, especially since both opinions have reasoning.

    In regards to your proposal to combine the articles into a self-contained "Around" article, instead of a category like it currently is, is definitely a viable option. The only potential problem I foresee is if we choose to elaborate on Fingerless, Continuous, and Continuous Fingerless variations for each trick. Of course, the advantage gained by combining the articles into a single cohesive article with no need to click links to get to other Around tricks could outweigh this cost, and no one is telling us to go that much into detail regarding the variations anyway. And if we do describe each variation, its not like it requires a significant amount of space for a description and perhaps a gif. After all YouTube tutorials exist for a reason, and written tutorials are so vastly inferior to videos, so we shouldn't even write full in-depth descriptions of how a pen specifically moves during a trick. So perhaps combining pages is a good idea? What about Spins then? I think combining could work well for Spins too.

    What about Hybrids then? This combining of trick articles would only apply to articles it makes most sense to I guess. Shadows, for example would retain their own page I think, even though they contain a spin and charge.
  2. Fraction

    Fraction Stop

    I do agree about it not requiring significant space for each finger variation in the article.
    You also bring up an interesting point about the fingers being modifiers. Yes they do modify the trick, however I believe modifiers change something fundamental about the characteristics of the movement of the pen. Any trick can be performed in (almost) any set of slots and around (almost) any fingers. Changing the slots/fingers does not modify the characteristics of the movements of the pen. It may be worth expanding on the concept, however it's really just retroactively adding a name to something that hasn't really needed it till now lmao.

    I mean every spin trick i can think of is the same thing on a different part of the hand so that would make sense to me.

    This is also an interesting question. The name shadow is used to the point that it probably does deserve its own article, however it's really just a top spin, which would fit under an article on spin type tricks.
    I guess going off that thinking, the TA probably does deserve its own article too, unlike what i said in my previous posts, and I mean the TA page is quite good so theres no need to remove it.
    Either way with both cases maybe have the main around or spin type article then anything different enough and famous/often used enough would get its own article linked there as well.
    Wright likes this.
  3. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    Fraction I've been thinking more about your side of the argument, and I'm starting to value it more. I still haven't decided if I fully favor it yet, but I'm definitely starting to be convinced the more I think about it. By the time I finish this post (I'm gonna be editing in the full details), I will see if my mind has changed. I'll tag you when it's done.

    EDIT: Looking back this post, this reasoning is really long winded. Basically the tricks should be two words because nearly all other tricks are two words. That's pretty much it.

    The more I think about @Fraction's point of view, the more it seems correct, and by the end of this post I might favor his view. While I personally certainly like the aesthetic look of "IndexAround" (uppercase and no space style—the style I proposed) and its function as keeping the trick name as one term, I am beginning to question its true merit.

    Let's temporarily take a look at the name of another common trick: the Twisted Sonic. It's two words with a space. Its not "TwistedSonic" with no space. Now, it certainly could be written that way...but it's not. Demon's Sonic is not. Devil's Shadow is not. Double Charge. Triangle Pass. Triple Infinity. Fake Double. Thumb Snap. Actually, Spins and Arounds are the only trick names in which the terms are sometimes combined. Upon review, I realize that "Index" is really just a pseudo-modifier like "Twisted" or "Triangle" or "Devil's" (I'm not gonna go into the definition of a "modifier" because that's beside the point here). We can see with the Thumb Snap that the finger is just another term that is part of the name. Just as "Twisted" allows one to know how the trick is performed, so does "Index". A Sonic that is twisted. An Around that uses the index finger.

    Thus, IndexAround should really be written as Index Around. Likewise, ThumbAround (or Thumbaround) should really be written as Thumb Around. That is probably the most jarring change (at least for me), because the Thumb Around is the one trick that I nearly always see written as a single word. This would apply to Spins, as well. Index Spin. Thumb Spin. A semi-jarring change is Spider Spin, because I am also used to seeing that written as a single word most of the time.

    Conclusion: Because fingers in trick names, like "Index", are really just pseudo-modifiers like "Twisted" or "Double", they should be written separately to follow the strong precedent of separating terms like that in trick names (examples: Twisted Sonic and Double Infinity). Part of me is torn because this looks weird right now, but I've decided that its probably for the best.

    I believe Wright's note about trick names not being capitalized is mostly due to Internet typing laziness and casualness. Trick names are proper nouns, and in a "formal" situation like the title of a YouTube video, they are capitalized.

    The Fingerpass is kept as one word because it is a completely different combo name. "Finger Pass" would specifically denote a Pass that is done between fingers, rather than between two other body parts, like in those Thigh Passes in Kuma Films' "Epic Pen Spinning" video. Now I'm just getting technical though.

    So yeah I guess now I agree with Fraction? I mean unless everyone in pen spinning agreed to make trick names one word (TwistedSonic, DoubleInfinity, Devil'sSonic, etc.) for some reason, then Fraction's view seems the way to go. This post was kinda long-winded but oh well I got a little obsessed.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    Fraction likes this.
  4. Nickle

    Nickle Old-Timer

    could think about who the main readers are and who you want to aim the wiki to.
    if it's experienced spinners who need the wiki the most then they would easily figure out that indexaround and thumbaround are just variations of the around.
    but if we want the wiki to be easily navigated by newer spinners who have a limited knowledge about ps terminology, maybe it'd be worth considering having one page for each named variation, or putting up redirect pages on the ps trick category page so that indexaround and thumbaround redirects to the around page

    I thought about using the finger as a modifier, but the modifier works different for different tricks (e.g. indexaround, indexspin) so I'm not sure if it would qualify as a modifier. one could also argue that it isn't a modifier since it only describes where the pen travels and is therefore an extention of another system.
    - indexmid-around 12-23 /
    around 12-indexmid-23
    -scissorspin 12-tf /
    spin 12-thumbindex-tf
    Fraction likes this.
  5. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    I was using the word "modifier" rather loosely, mainly to describe the way terms like "Twisted" and "Index" act more like adjectives for a trick. I didn't really mean they were true modifiers in the sense of Fingerless and Continuous.

    I also do think we could create pages for "Index Around", "Middle Around", etc. that redirect to the "Around" page. So if someone searches "thumbaround" or "thumb around", then they are redirected to the "Thumb Around" section in the "Around" article. Is this what you're suggesting?
  6. Nickle

    Nickle Old-Timer

    that was what I was suggesting. wow you're really quick at typing.

    but then again, if thumbaround and indexaround deserve their own sections of the around page, what about thumbindex-around? but you could actually just have a "compound around" section too and just have them all there, so no big deal
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  7. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    Wow you just solved a huge complication regarding what Arounds would get their own section. I was thinking "do we make a section for all Arounds possible?" Really smart idea with that "Compound Around" section. This idea could also be used for a "Compound Spin" section in a "Spin" article.
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  8. Tigres

    Tigres The Simple Guy Staff Member Moderator

    It seems some problems were solved while I was gone lol didn't expect to get so many responses after I gave a word.

    I've been wanting to help organize the UPSB wiki as a reliable source for people whose interested in pen spinning. Looking at the conversations here, I'm planning to place you all in the research department (not official yet). It'll give more opportunity for you all guys can store all discussions in one sub forum in an organized matter, and if needed, publicise your researches. It'll be another good way to take-in new members who are interested in this field of penspinning.

    Would you all like this idea?

    I want answers not likes.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
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  9. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    Sure I mean it could be a good place to bounce some ideas around. A lot of research/thought has already been done regarding pen spinning over the years, but maybe we'll think of new stuff and/or interesting interpretations of pen spinning things. How would this Research Department function? I read the wiki page about past ones but what were you personally thinking?
  10. Tigres

    Tigres The Simple Guy Staff Member Moderator

    @Green Caffeine
    I know that a lot of research has been done already. However, we must also consider that all those research that has been done over the years are gone from the absence of v3 v4 archives. Looking how it is, I think it would be difficult to believe that the archive would ever be recovered. The only option left is to either recreate a new storage of research information or try pick out bits of info from old UPSB via wayback machine. From what I have seen in our current UPSB wiki, I don't think beginners or newcomers would appreciate what our information database looks like. We will need to fill in more information in order to become a more reliable source for penspinning.

    My particular goal for this wiki group here is to have you guys become some sort of new pioneers of recent ps info. Even if we recovered our archives, I believe most research would be rather outdated in such times where ps is evolving pretty fast even at this rate.

    Even for that topic of 'compound around' concept, it can possibly be a huge contribution of the standardization of ps notation system; something that this PS world has yet to achieve. And this accomplishment will facilitate communication of spinners when giving breakdowns. In order to bring this to reality, an active group of members who are dedicated in this field of ps is needed. Which is what I am asking here right now.
    Fraction likes this.
  11. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    I understand what you are saying and I agree with much of it (probably all of it). It is true that much of the past boards' info is not stored in the Wayback. I say what you propose sounds like a reasonable and helpful idea. So if you are asking if a new Research Department should be organized, then, based off what you say, I answer with yes. If you are also asking for members who are willing to contribute to this group, then I say that I am willing to contribute. (I do have to point out though that while I do ponder things about pen spinning with some enjoyment and have some knowledge of general history and info, my physical spinning skill itself is lacking compared to many others. I'm not sure what your expectations are for this group, but I would be willing to contribute.)

    EDIT: Okay that paragraph is worded weirdly I think. Basically: Yes, a new ResDep sounds good and I'd be willing to contribute to it if you're looking for members.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  12. Fraction

    Fraction Stop

    @Tigres I'd love for this to happen, one of my favourite things is talking about ps lmao
    I wouldnt mind discussing compound arounds in more detail, cause atm what im thinking is that the naming for them might already be adequate, but at the same time I can think of reasons that it might not be.
  13. Tigres

    Tigres The Simple Guy Staff Member Moderator

    @Fraction @Green Caffeine

    Guess that settles it, can you think of any other members that would contribute to this, so I can request the board for you guys to join the research department.
  14. Fraction

    Fraction Stop

    honestly ive been quite inactive for a while so i dont really know anyone who'd contribute
  15. Tigres

    Tigres The Simple Guy Staff Member Moderator

    of course I'm not expecting for you guys to be hardcore and all, but you know, its a chance to create a new bedrock of ps information.
  16. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    Hmm well @RPD comes to mind. I don't know much about him and he may only rarely be on UPSB (or maybe he's on a lot, I dunno). I just remember him posting some information in the Foundations of Pen Spinning thread.

    And @Law seems like a intelligent fellow who likes to contribute things. I don't know if he's interested though.

    Oh and maybe @strat1227 as well. I believe he was on a past research department? But I'm also not sure if he is interested.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
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  17. RPD

    RPD Member

    I'll gladly participate in the new RD (I was a member of the old one). For anything notation related, I can add many info and stabilished ideas. I've read most of the old RD articles (the ones about notation werent really interesting though) and most of the laboratoire articles, so don't worry about lost info and missing articles.

    I think that it would be awesome to make "official" posts at UPSB, like the old RD ones. Many problems mentioned in this post (how to classify tricks, what's a modifier, the compound arounds thing) and many more that will appear as you continue developing the wiki have already been solved since many years ago, in really clever, versatile and tidy ways - its just that many people don't know what's that solution! Making didactic posts at the wiki explaining those would be a great way to teach people and to stop spreading misinformation. There are some useful comments here on UPSB but most of them get buried or confused with other, not-so-useful comments. Kind of official posts at wiki would be a way to stop this from happening :)

    One last note: I know that people like to invent and think for solutions. I've seen many comments at this forum where people try to solve problems in really weird ways, inventing completely new systems with no purpose etc. Well, that's not what I want to see in the wiki. Even though I'm presenting myself as ~~the mighty source of absolute knowledge~~ (and for some people it might seem like I'm one of them), 90% of the time I'm just a textbook and not the writer. Many concepts that I know were thought by spinners with multiple years of experience, various wt/wc appearances and studies in science stuff: fel2fram and hexbinmos are mathematicians, I'm a physicist, freeman is an engineer... to name a few. Others were just really good at solving this kind of problems. So, I would recommend asking me the "stabilished" solution for a problem and then, if you don't like it, suggest yours and why is it better than the original one, that way we can have a rational debate :D

    Wew RPD wants to have a rational debate at UPSB must be new haha whatanoob
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2016
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  18. Nickle

    Nickle Old-Timer

    idk if I would be of much help, but I think being in the RD could be quite fun since I like ps theory, history and discussions
  19. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    Don't know what's happening with the Research Department proposal (or maybe it's functioning right now but no one knows), but anyway I'm posting here because I will be combining the Around pages into one "Around" article (different from the "Category:Arounds" page that will be rather useless with the new Around page) in the next few days. I will also make a "Spin" article, and change any existing Around/Spin pages into redirects, but perhaps I will keep them categorized so they appear in the Trick List, I dunno. I might also create new Around/Spin pages just to make redirects (e.g., make a Middle Around article but only to serve as a redirect to the main Around article).

    It seemed like people wanted this when we were posting in this thread back in September, but if anyone disagrees please post swiftly.
    Fraction likes this.
  20. Green Caffeine

    Green Caffeine Old-Timer

    Yes this is a double post, but only so people realize the thread is updated (people don't receive notifications of editing posts I think). Mods you can combine the post if you want.

    Anyway, I don't really see a purpose for have both "Category:Tricks" and "Category:Trick List". The categories seem to be nearly identical. I'll probably just delete "Category:Trick List" and keep "Category:Tricks" unless people object to this within a couple days.
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