WT World Tournament 2017 Final: Videos OUT!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Zkhan, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    Maybe I'm wrong, but there seemed to be some similarities in Prearp' V combo and PWT combos with his WT material. It's not established whether judges classify recycling as 'purely within WT17 combos' or includes 'combos in international competitions and major CV' too.

    Recycling impression vs actual-breakdown-recycling is also questionable distinction, it seems judges penalise them inconsistently (whether for valid reason or maybe not as valid reason, and PS is so complicated in that variation which looks similar can be far rarer and far more difficult....)

    ^agreed with that. Addressing 'illusion of originality' or 'illusion of recycling (???)' is quite hard, because no one has perfect memory, so it just ends up as what judge feels like. Not sure what can be done about these issues.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  2. Tchus

    Tchus Member

    I won't make the break but I've watched his WT combos enough to know if there are similarities
    Prearp V : 1identical link (R3), 3 identical tricks (R1/R2, R4, R3), 2 similarities (R1/R3, R3) (his fc 34 is on a whole different level)
    PWT QR : the hai tua
    PWT R1 : same starter as R2, same switch R1/R3 (3 times), same lame hai tua, same 34 fc
    There's one thing more with his R4 (I admit there's recycled stuff in his R3, but I think we all agree that it's his worst on this WT)
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  3. DArKT

    DArKT Old-Timer

    What I get from all this BD is he stayed in the same trick range in all rounds. All his combos look VERY familiar - I agree with isuk in the subtleties of written BD; if we keep this point of view, then Xound also recycles a lot.

    In contrast to Scream, we have GSK8. He uses a consistent array of tricks but despite that, is able to create solid pieces able to stand on their on. You can observe similarities in his combos, but they are very different from each other visually. The same can not be said about Scream.
  4. Tchus

    Tchus Member

    Sure, my point is not to blame the judges. It's about all the illegitimate shitstorm following Scream's R3. Scream didn't recycled in R4,no one can say that, that's all
    Imo, appreciation of the visual aspect of a combo is for the most a story about "climate". If some ppl say a spinner recycles, the others will blindly believe them and the visual aspect will be responsible of a sensation of "deja vu" because they'll focus on "Have I seen this before ?" and not on "Is this something new ?", which are 2 different thoughs to address the combo. If some ppl say a spinner is original/creative, that'll enhance the vision we have of the combo.
    If we're really impartial, all the combos of a spinner have something in common visually, it's normal when you have style (or a beginning of style). Our bias make it negative or positive (I can recognize Raimo's combos, independently of the set-up, after 1 seconde, and as far as I know, no one complain about Raimo's lack of originality)
  5. DArKT

    DArKT Old-Timer

    Iirc, Raimo wasnt a competitive spinner
  6. Taeko

    Taeko Old-Timer

    I agree with you. That's the same for Sira.

    If that's in criterias, that's stupid. That penalize active spinners...

    Subtle, but so much right.

    I think there is no competitive or no-competitive spinner. The fact is, if there is no-competitive spinners, that's a problem in itself. Not because of spinners, but because competition can't include them. Competition have to be the "store front" of penspinning, who show us what is the best in penspinning. If criterias can't valorize a spinner wolrdwide admired, criterias are bad.
  7. DArKT

    DArKT Old-Timer

    Disagree. Sira implements creative use to FC when he has to rely on it. Scream doesn't.

    And I think there are competitive spinners and non competitive ones. There are some skilled spinners who could easily advance very far in a world competition but they don't join (Minwoo (lol), Joshin, Slofis, Mesi, Baaron, Supawit).

    My point on Raimo is that he probably never had to put out a combo where he had to read judges comments and improve based on negative aspects pointed by them. Whereas Scream, on the other hand...
  8. Tchus

    Tchus Member

    The reasoning is still the same, competitive or not.
    Let's talk about an actual CV penspinner : Vain (forget about his combos in recent competitions). From what i've read so far, there is, for the most, negative criticism about his combos on UPSB discord and positive criticism on FPSB discord. Why ? => we tend to have the same standards by communicate within a community (Writting this make me understand why JEB has such a difference with our standards)
    So what happen to Scream's R4 if judges read a lot of complains about his recycled stuffs in R3 ? :thinking:

    He won JEB cup 08 ))))))

    Disclaimer : Taeko and I aren't arguing here about what R6 results should be (plot twist, I want gsk8 to win). We are just pointing the finger now at things we'll need to discuss again after WT17 and before WT19 to improve our international major competition.
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  9. DArKT

    DArKT Old-Timer

    Trust me, I get this. Specially after a judge almost FULLY QUOTED a line Isuk wrote about my combo in R4; But still, judges this year are incredibly capable. I dont think they'd be influenced be meere badmouthing.

    JEB Cup, specially waaay back in 08 probably didnt have the same standards as WT in 2017. Even WT15, 13 and 11 had different judging schemes. I cant even tell what criteria they used in this specific tournament.

    Raimo was probably revolutionary to his era, Scream is not.
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  10. Taeko

    Taeko Old-Timer

    Indeed, but he push the level of construction in a fantastic place. He is a linkage master ; Sirapob a trick master. Don't think difficulty turn only around tricks, please... A combo is NOT an addition of tricks/sequences. If you think a combo is a successions of tricks linked together with others tricks, you're wrong. It's a GLOBAL thing, where every tricks have to be thought in correlation with the past and future trick and in correlation with the global orientation of the combo. Not isolated like in a brekdown. You can describe every tricks in a breakdown, but you can't describe links, because links doesn't exist like things, but as transcendent entities inherent to a combo. However, that's not a combo, but an addition of a lot of mini-combos composed by one trick, pasted together in one video. No-sens.

    After, you get two different type of spinners : spinners who care about that, and spinners who don't care about that. You can make a "scale", like a line tighted between two points, and place differents spinners on this line depending of what is important for him in a combo.

    Metaphor : a combo is like a society. If you just add individual persons, you DON'T get a society : you get an abstraction, where people don't care of their environment and evolve independently. What about politic ? What about economy ? What about history ? What about all of globals things who cement society ? That's no-sens. Global things always make individual people and grow everybody up as person. That's the same for a combo. A trick is nothing isolated from the reste of the others links. Tricks/links are no isolated but always in communication for give us, concretely, a combo.

    And Scream (or vain, or gollum, or me for example) work on the global aspect : we care about consistence, rythm, global esthetic, global execution (and not only trick execution). He's creative in his field (trust me, I learnt a lot from him in this WT !). If you think he's no creative, I encourage you to reconsidere your judgment. Creativity is not just "find a new trick". However, all linkages masters can hang themself.

    Because you dont want to see how much he's creative. trust me =D Your perception of what is penspinning is too restrictive for accept the good role of Scream in our art !

    Ok, I wasn't talking about that, but about the idea of some of spinners, by nature, are non-competitives. I think that's wrong, but apparently you wasn't talking about that ^^

    And I'd like to use the problems of this WT for start the discussion =) By the way, I'm not only in the future, because I'd like to be heared in present, for avoid the repetition of mistakes and demystify blorred area. I think EVEN with our rulebook, EVEN with our criterias judges don't plenty take care of all importants aspects in PS ; however, Scream should had be treated seriously, for example. Tchus demonstrate recycling is a fantasy, or if we say Scream is recycling, Sirapob is recycling too (and he can't win versus Scream because of originality, the same versus I.suk). @coffeelucky

    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
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  11. DArKT

    DArKT Old-Timer

    I recognize the importance of combo structure, Taeko. Thats exactly why I find Scream to be overrated by you guys. I can point out at least 10 spinners that showcased better construction ability than him in this tournament (IMO). The fact that his combos all look the same proves to me he has a deficience in this very criteria.

    I also think creativity should take in consideration unusual slots/linkages used by the spinner and not only tricks themselves; Otherwise people like myself would stand no chance against FC/power/artistic spinns lol.
    "consistence, rythm, global esthetic, global execution" - These are all aspects that were covered and properly analyzed in previous editions. I think they were indeed properly covered in this one.

    "Because you dont want to see how much he's creative. trust me =D Your perception of what is penspinning is too restrictive for accept the good role of Scream in our art !"

    I get when you say that to isuk about him taking difficulty more in consideration than other aspects, but please do not say that about me. It may sound a little random, but I dont know of any other way to express my perception: Id put Baaron over F2F anytime.
  12. ivabra

    ivabra Member

    I personally penalize within WT17, as I haven't followed the other tournaments that much.. However, I also penalize it within a combo itself, I've seen penspinners spam one trick for their whole combo, that has been the case for Sutomo, Sirapob, Kin, etc. I honestly think there is some kind of perspective coming from each board because nobody on FPSB was expecting Scream to lose, and same thing for you losing in R5. It's like all the other judges neglected his amazing construction and how smart the combo was, and like they neglected your variety in your combo.

    Haven't read the whole debate for now but I'm pretty confident judges who voted Sirapob in R5 were influenced by the narrative, the same thing is happening to LeBron James in basketball, where having an above average game for him is like a career-game for slightly less good players. Like I said to Zkhan I think the same thing happened to Fel2fram in 2013, and same thing happened to Supawit in R5 in 2011.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  13. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    I think there was better recognition of 24/14/tc unusual applications in this WT than prev ones tbh (and judges often commented on how these links were cool, whereas in past WT we had eriror scored lower than he should've been by idiot judges ignoring subtle material).

    1. hardly any notable uses of powertricks in WT17 other than mine (and maybe gsk8 fl ta - single finger ss, but those aren't that remarkable by 2017 powertrick levels), 'WT spinner relying mainly on power' is a thing of past since WT11. If you mean spinners who 'create powerful impression', they still need decent content level if they want to win.
    2. maybe only 2-3 notable-ish users of fc in WT17 (scream, sirapob, and to lesser extent - beygeek)
    3. 'artistic' was never really defined (in WC12 and WC14 - f2f and hal entered tech and art both with similar ways of spinning) - in WT17 i feel most spinners and combos are way more technical than artistic (other than a few exceptions like katts R3 and R4 perhaps)

    <<"consistence, rhythm, global esthetic, global execution" - These are all aspects that were covered and properly analyzed in previous editions. I think they were indeed properly covered in this one.>>

    ^judges commented on these things, but they aren't really considered in scoring that much IMO.
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  14. DArKT

    DArKT Old-Timer

    I consider Yua's parallel world PP still to be a powertrick. And advanced SS isn't remarkable by 2017 standards? Wow

    What I meant by power was powerful spinners (like you), and not Peem spamming Palmspin FLTA lol

    WT17 had more FC spinners than all previous editions iirc
  15. Taeko

    Taeko Old-Timer

    Who ? I explained my point of view. Explain yours, with argues, 'cause currently you just say the opposite of what i said without any explanation. That's frustrating ^^ I USED A METAPHOR AND PUT SOME TEXT IN ITALLIC F?§RE?GER/§ER?G/ER?GE MY EFFORT SCORE IS OVER 9000 !!! If you can't developpe your idea, that's because mine is better than yours =D So, your turn. (in before : "imo" is not an argue ;) )

    By the way, Scream is not overrated, he lost =D Sirapob ? Hm...

    Ahah, sarcasm <3 But yeah, some cases in this WT are too quickly "dispatched". WE WANT JUSTICE !!!


    drama > objectivity =D
    By the way, that don't work versus gollumsk8 I think, because nobody expected Sira or gollum will be in final... That's a narratives fight \o/
  16. Nz[THPSC]

    Nz[THPSC] New Member

    How can a combo be metaphorically compared to the society? That makes no sense. A combo rather represents the particular person’s knowledge or skills, for the reason that it is generated by individual people. The spinners who can spin one skill very professionally are like professors who are an expert in one field. They can create a notable work that related to their field. A society still admires their works. Then, what is the problem of being an expert in only one field? Penspinning is a community. It has various kinds of spinner. When everyone shares their individual skills they fond of, a variety will be formed spontaneously. That’s what society is.
  17. Taeko

    Taeko Old-Timer

    Compare trick with individual. Compare the global thing, the combo, with the other global thing, the society. Compare what is cimented tricks together in a combo and people together in a society. You get the metaphor. I'm talking about how tle global thing is more than the addition of differents parts who compose it. That's GESTALT (if you don't know, google it, maybe that will be clearer than my metaphor/explanation ^^).

    Why I said that ? Because some spinners care about the global aspect of a combo and some don't care about it and I think people who don't care can't understand spinners who care (Next, the spinners who care will be underrated). That's a perception case.
  18. gollumsk8

    gollumsk8 Member

    Hi guys, i don't want to take part in this debate as i'm not sure where i stand myself ^^
    but i want to correct i.suk there =p

    True for pd around, but not exactly similar.
    Not sure what those fl sonic and rev pd around you are talking about are ? anyway i'm sure its not cycled content. at the very least it's hybrided differently & in a different sequence
    if by topspin you are reffering to the middlebackaround then it's true i used it before, but with very different sequence too

    i say this because i'm pretty sure i didn't use the same trick twice in this tournament... there are some similarities here & there for most common linktricks but i always use a different hybrid to start or finish the trick.
    only talking about this tournament because i've no idea what i could have done before... i forget my breakdown all the time

    inside the combo itself i think the only repetition i do in this combo is ext ta but that's on purpose lol and again it's a bit different each time =p
    this combo had lot of new material for me:
    reverse ring spin from 14 at 0:01s ... put lot of pressure on the combo right from the start its dumb lol
    another rev spin 1.5 on 34 from back to fl ta rev -> middle rev pp at 0:02s
    ss palmspin ss at 0:07s i never done that in combo before. also the sequence after it was stupid hard to do with good exe... hard to control momentum
    the whole finish section after the bad ring around at 0:12s. i thought i did hard finish before this combo but i was wrong

    anyway it was a very challenging combo to make, hope you like it ^^
  19. DArKT

    DArKT Old-Timer

    @Taeko ill just paste here the parte after the "IMO" -

    >>>The fact that his combos all look the same proves to me he has a deficience in this very criteria.<<<

    IMO may not be na argument but I doubt you're taking all your ideas from the holy word held in the holy bible of pen spinning. You're acting like a middle schooler trolling on the internet lol. Even judges rely on personal interpretations of the practice itself to draw conclusions, as you are doing right now. I cant wait for @Tigres to rain in here with an input on all of this :rofl:

    Your metaphor is also poor to me, because a combo itself is an individual effort. Some economicists argue society can exist centered on individuals instead of focusing on global objectives (I dont agree with this, but its only to make a counterpoint to yours). If Screams combos are relative to a society, I'd say they'd be a functioning one, but with serious problems that need to be adressed (maybe like France pre 1789 (?) idk - playing your game here lol).

    He uses similar structures in all of his combos despite BD, his use of fingercross is not revolutionary when compared to Xound or even Sira himself. His linkages are very hard, indeed... but thats about it. He doesnt use his tricks in a smart way, and thats what you're trying to say. To me this wouldnt be a very nice society to live in.

    I've seen no one here saying anything like "i dont care about the combo as a hole and its structure, only if the tricks in it are hard and flashy" - Are you stuck in '11? I wholeheartedly agree with you on the importance of construction and structure, and to me thats why I dont get all the fuzz around Scream. I'm not downgrading him as a spinner, I just don't think that's his forte.

    About the spinners I said Id bring up: Van, VAIN, Gsk8, GSL, yourself, Tchus (really like his R2 combo and how it was displayed), Isuk, beygeek...
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  20. i.suk

    i.suk ordinary powertricker

    Adv ss on index/mid/ring aren't anything remarkable in WT17 (unless linked in hard or weird way), pinky one is still worth noting - although menowa did film adv ss fall back in 2012 in some gathering vid. Parallel world dual pass 23 was used in 3 combos by sutomo in WT13 (although only x2-3), personally I feel it doesn't have powertrick 'impression' but I can see how it can fall under powertrick definition since it's fl around 0.5 cont, basically. 3 notable fc-based spinners is more than previous, excluding combos that have minor use of fc for 2 tricks, I'd say 3/64 isn't that many even though the impression in our minds is pretty strong.

    @gollumsk8 oops my bad, turns out you didn't use pd around ~ fl sonic rev before (checked 6 WT combos, PWT qual/R1 and some of recent FPSBT), I need to revise my memory OTL. The ending is crazy, I was reminded of some ideas I'd forgotten about when looking at your breakdown x)

    I'm not sure how judges will treat/what they should do about 'recycling effect' where stuff seems similar rather than being exactly the same <-- as was discussed earlier, most spinners don't want to see people relying on small group of trick/linkage ideas, even if the variations are different. If there is enough difference or depth to the variations, then there shouldn't be a penalty (discussion on discord with tchus and taeko gave me the impression that they agree with this).

    @Taeko about active spinners being at disadvantage - it's always been like this I think. For example, if we'd never seen MKSFT's or x1213's combos in 2012-2014, their material in 2015-2017 would seem a lot more shocking to us. IMO there should be distinction between 'highlight material shown in past WT, international competitions and key CV' which should contribute to judging perception of recycling (because competition is about showing your progress compared to your earlier level, if you're still using same material for core content of combo, then you haven't developed much); vs 'stuff you used in some FS or demonstration vid for practice'.

    It becomes a bit confusing if the material from several years ago is still legitimately considered hard or unusual though. I think I could've surprised people a lot more if I'd never shown my level in fl with the heap of cont/fl vids I'd posted before, but I like filming and uploading too much .-.

    How should filler-ish stuff that doesn't contribute to difficulty/material shown (but also doesn't detract from visual impression of combo) be considered?<-- I think 'filler parts' of combo should be cooler stuff than around/sonic/pass in normal slots, and judges seemed to think similar in their past comments. Ideally, if you're going to be using tricks that aren't that hard, you should combine them in unusual order that also increases difficulty dramatically like making combo in rhythm/fighting game (lol)

    @DArKT while I did consider the material for my breakdowns a lot to increase density and keep recycling to reasonable level, I didn't care that much about specific impression for most part since I prioritised putting ridiculous ending (if you compare my dropped ending R4 draft with the submitted one, it's clear the dropped ending one has way better pacing <-- but then WT judging might only give this difference in exec +1 point in current system)
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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